INTERVIEW WITH PHOTOGRAPHER KEVIN CUMMINS

NB: The links on the artists' names lead to examples of their finest work so if you're reading this in a place where you can't have the speakers on, bookmark it for later.

Juvenes, The Joy Division photographs of Kevin Cummins, is published today, December 3rd 2007, by To Hell With Publishing.

Above: Kevin Cummins, Roxy Fan.

Above: Photographer Kevin Cummins

Something extraordinary happened to me a week ago. I was tying up the loose ends of the series of articles about the Sheffield International Documentary Festival, and I stumbled across this quote about photographer Kevin Cummins:

Kevin is responsible for defining the image of Joy Division and helped bring them to a wider audience - Fiona Sturges. The Independent.

I realised I had neglected to talk about the man who took the seminal Joy Division in the Snow shots shown in Grant Gee's documentary Joy Division, about which you can read more in Sheffield International Doc/Fest - Passion Part III - Joy Division.

Above: The Joy Division in the Snow shoot.

I was aware of Kevin's name and legacy as a renowned music photographer, after all I was freelancing for the music press in the late 70s, and Kevin was the main photographer at the New Musical Express for ten years, but I had never seen his full body of work.

Above, Kevin, centre, photographing his mates The Ramones at The Electric Circus, 1977. Pic by Adrian Boot.

Having a look through the albums on his MySpace and Facebook, I was absolutely enthralled at some of his portraits. Portraiture is my main area of interest photographically, including portraits of musicians, and I understand the degree of trust that has to exist between the photographer and subject to capture essences of their personality that sometimes the subject would prefer not to be seen.

And that's why self-portrait work is so fascinating, because by subjecting oneself to the scalpel of the lens one discovers facets of oneself one would prefer to remain hidden, so as the subject of a self-portrait, no matter how much you intend to bullshit the camera, you will not succeed.

Which is one reason why Kevin Cummins' portraits have such resonance, because he focuses on the most outstanding element of his subject's character and then builds the portrait around that. Just like the lens does. So he and the lens are in harmony.

Anyway, have a look at these stunning portraits:

Above: Mark E Smith, singer/songwriter of The Fall, one of John Peel's favourite bands (and my partner Brian's too.)

Above: Albert Finney, one of Britain's greatest ever actors.

Kevin: "Finney came up to Salford for me. The photo was taken in the house in which he was born. His aunt still lives there."

Marc Bolan, Singer/songwriter, musician.




Above, playwright, theatre director and actor Steven Berkoff.


Jeff Buckley, Singer/songwriter, musician.




Above: John Lydon, Singer/songwriter. Sex Pistols, PIL.

Absolutely stunning. But it was his photographs of women that blew my mind. Capturing a woman's strength and her fragility in one portrait is something you can only do if you have earned the woman's trust, understand women and aren't afraid of them. And all that's besides having the raw talent as a photographer. There are a lot of wusses around, I can tell you; men who run around like headless chickens when confronted by beautiful strong women like Courtney Love.

Kevin Cummins isn't one of them.

Above: Singer/songwriter, musician Courtney Love.

Above: Courtney Love

Above: Courtney Love

Strength and fragility are the two main qualities oozing from these pics of Courtney Love. That's the combination that Marilyn Monroe had as well; strength and fragility. These photographs of Kevin's are powerful testaments to Courtney's strength in the face of everything she's endured and still endures. Any man who can create work such as this has my deepest respect.

Above: Photographer Kevin Cummins and Courtney Love, Reading Festival.

Here's another startling portrait, this time of the gifted actress Anne Marie Duff, with whom you may be more familiar as Fiona Gallagher in Shameless. This portrait actually reverberates; astonishing.

Above: Theatre, film and television actress Anne Marie Duff.

And here's a portrait of my personal musical and cultural hero John Wardle aka Jah Wobble:

Above: Singer, songwriter, poet, composer and musician Jah Wobble.

Above: Singer/songwriter Ian Curtis, Joy Division.

But back to women, and back to the Joy Division story. There is plenty on the net if you want to research the subject of Joy Division further - John Cooper's Cerysmatic site is a very good place to start, but as I said in the Doc/Fest article about Joy Division:

I thought it was a shame that Ian's wife, Deborah Curtis, on whose book Touching From a Distance the film Control is based, did not participate in the documentary, aside from allowing her quotes to be used.

The music industry is very male dominated, very all-the-lads-together orientated, but ultimately the tale of Joy Division's demise focused around women; Ian Curtis' journalist lover, Annik Honoré, and the mother of his child, wife Deborah.

Maybe that's why the lads love to stick together in the rufty tufty world of Rock'n' Roll.

Women are dangerous.

Since I wrote that, and without reference to it, Kevin said to me about Courtney Love:

I love her - men are scared of her. Especially little boys who write for music papers. Women can't do rock you know..

Above: Ian Curtis

Here's an interview with Kevin at his recent exhibition of Joy Division photographs, held at the prestigious Paul Stolper gallery in London. The interview is conducted and filmed by YouTuber Hindle248:

Juvenes, The Joy Division photographs of Kevin Cummins, is published today, December 3rd 2007, by To Hell With Publishing. Here is what To Hell With Publishing say about the book:

“Even though I must have only been about three years old, I can still remember the first time I saw Kevin Cummins’ photographs of Joy Division. Even as a small child I was aware of the band and knew that my father was the singer, but seeing the black and white prints spread out across the carpet brought tangibility. They really did exist!” Natalie Curtis, July 2007

Kevin Cummins’ long awaited book of photographs from his Joy Division archive is more than just a book of pictures of one of the greatest rock bands by one of our greatest rock photographers. Since Ian Curtis’s death in 1980 Joy Division have developed, and maintain, a special place within rock’s history. Kevin Cummins photographed them from their beginnings as Warsaw in 1977.

This lavish production captures the essence of what they meant then and what continues to make them so influential today. JUVENES is a brooding investigation into the intangible quality that makes Joy Division one of the most loved and respected English bands still to this day.

I asked Kevin why he wasn't going with a major publishing house, and this is what he said:

I commissioned several short personal essays from a mixture of people whose lives had been touched by the band - all have very different experiences.

Ian Rankin (crime writer),
Natalie Curtis (Ian and Debbie's daughter),
Alan Hempsall (singer with Crispy Ambulance - he stood in for Ian one night when Ian was ill),
Pat Nevin (former Scotland and Chelsea footballer),
Matthew Higgs (artist - he is in the background on some of my shots - as a schoolboy),
Nick Lezard (writer),
Cath Carroll (writer and musician),
David Peace (novelist).

I wasn't interested in going with a major publishing house. Experience told me they wouldn't do what I wanted anyhow. They'd have wanted a more obvious title and they wouldn't have let me have a graphic book jacket.

I decided that I wanted to sell it as a piece of art - hence the very limited edition. 226 copies. 200 at 200 pounds each. 26 (these include a gelatin silver print) at 500 pounds each - all signed and editioned.

Several majors wanted to publish it - and they still want to do a normal paperback edition. I don't want to do it though.

Finding myself in the excrutiating position myself of being an unconventional person trying to go down the conventional route of getting an agent with a view to my debut novel being sold to a major publishing house, I can only admire Kevin's dedication to pure art; pure art being unconventional by default.

Above: Kevin Cummins in Shanghai

Here's an article Kevin wrote for The Observer last August, about his time knowing and photographing Joy Division. At the end, Kevin talks a little about Tony Wilson.

When Joy Division came along Tony was just as excited as me and the band, despite being that bit older. He was like a kid when it came to music. He believed in bands when no-one else did, and was prepared to spend his own money making things happen. He was the catalyst for everything that happened on the Manchester music scene from the 1970s.

Tony didn't mind anyone lampooning him. But it's a shame that lots of people thought he was Steve Coogan's caricature in 24 Hour Party People. In fact, he was very kind, very generous, and very, very smart.

Above: Tony Wilson interview in Hulme, Manchester uploaded by YouTuber joesoap2006

Absolutely. I only met Tony a couple of times and I thought he was a lovely man. Come to think of it, there was a lot of lampooning in 24 Hour Party People. A Certain Ratio were portrayed as something akin to The Krankies which irritated the fuck out of me, considering that they were, in my opinion, as important a band as Joy Division (I realise I am alone in having this viewpoint.)

It turns out that Kevin and I are both fans of Brassai, too:

Above: Photograph of an Opium Den from Brassai The Secret Paris of the 30s.

Me: Who would you love to photograph, but havent done so yet?
Kevin: George Bush's assassin.

Me: Who do you wish you could have photographed, but now its too late (for me its Oliver Reed.)
Kevin: Graham Greene

Above: A portrait of author Graham Greene by I think Alice Springs.

I love this shot but yes, I would have liked to have seen a portrait of Graham by Kevin.

Above, Kevin Cummins as a boy, Trafalgar Square, London.

I love this shot of Kevin. There he is with his box Brownie. And look, here's me around the same age writing on my favourite magic slate:

Above: me as a nipper.

Naturally I've ordered a copy of Juvenes.

Rarely do I purchase art. Rarely has a photographer been such a huge inspiration. Photographs of nature don't touch me the same way as great portraits; nature is God, that's a given, whereas humans are fragile and flawed; that's what makes them so fascinating.

The spark of human life is so fleeting that when a great photographer captures it and unfolds it before our eyes with such a delicate touch, our hearts cannot fail to be captivated too.


I wrote that about KC, it's not someone else's quote. It's one of my own voluptuous pieces of lilac prose. Good innit? :) Can you tell I've been once again been totally knocked out by an artist, much as I was in May when I discovered the work of singer/ songwriter Gavin Clark? :)

Sometimes my blog articles have soundtracks. The one to this article is the late, great Mama Cass singing "Dream a Little Dream For Me." Don't ask me why; it asked to be included and didn't tell me why. So have a flick through this blog article again just looking at the photos, whilst listening to Mama Cass sing...

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Notes:

National Portrait Gallery, London, Photographic Portrait of the Month for December 2007: Tony Wilson, 1950-2007.

From kevincummins.co.uk:
We are selling a limited edition of the photo in order to raise money for the two hospitals where Tony was treated this year.

They're handmade 16 x 20 inch gelatin silver archive photographic prints in an edition of thirty signed by Kevin Cummins. No further prints will be made in this edition.

Proceeds go to Manchester Royal Infirmary (Kidneys for Life charity) and Christie's Hospital.
email kevin@kevincummins.co.uk for further details

Kevin has worked for The Royal Opera House, The Royal Northern Ballet, The Liverpool Playhouse and The Oxford Playhouse. He has contributed to many major UK publications, including: The Times, The Observer, Esquire, Maxim, Elle, Vogue, Mojo, Q, FourFourTwo, Sleaze Nation and The Big Issue.
He spent 10 years as the chief photographer for New Musical Express – the world’s biggest selling rock weekly – where his award-winning pictures were a major contributing factor in the rise of the ‘Madchester’ (a word invented by me old mukkas Phil Shotton and Keith Jobling) and Cool Britannia scenes.
Kevin was commissioned by Salford's Viewpoint Gallery who wanted him to choose 40 eminent people born in Salford to photograph. His personal choice included Sir Alistair Cooke, Albert Finney, Celia Birtwell, football commentators Kenneth Wolstenholme and John Motson, John Virgo, John Cooper Clarke, Happy Mondays and Graham Nash...

Kevin Cummins' work is represented worldwide by the prestigious agency, Idols.
His photographs are held in the permanent collections of:
The National Portrait Gallery
The National Museum of Film and Photography, Bradford
The Victoria and Albert Museum, London
Salford City Art Gallery
Wigan Heritage Centre
The Royal Exchange Theatre, Manchester
Proud Central, London

Above: L to R: Paul Morley, Merlin, Karen, Steph, KC, Richard Boon.

INTERVIEW WITH SYNTH NL MICHEL VAN OSENBRUGGEN

EDIT 19th June: Synth.nl has just mailed me with some GREAT NEWS! 

Above: Synth.nl in his studio.

I'm getting a lot of musicians inviting me to be MySpace friends, and I really enjoy listening to everything. All the music I've heard has been good in one way or another, but occasionally I hear stuff that triggers an empathy switch in my brain. The music is communicating that somewhere along the line, I have something in common with the artist; the music is almost a conductor of understanding and familiarity.

I knew absolutely nothing about Synth.nl when I clicked on his MySpace invite and started listening to the track that was playing, but I found the music instantly uplifting. It's the sort of music into which I can jump in and then float about, being gently tossed this way and that by its currents. It reminds me of that transendental floating around feeling you get as the passenger of a fast car doing laps round a race track.

It's no coincidence that Synth.nl is really into racing cars then. Only I didn't know that before I interviewed him...

Above: Me in my mate's Lotus Elise after a whole day of doing laps at, I think, Donnington race track (him driving, of course, wink.)

The following interview is a list of emailed questions, with Synth.nl's answers. Click below to listen to "Scuderia." This gives you a good idea of Synth.nl's music. You can find more on his MySpace and site.

Jude: I love the fact that Scuderia starts with what sounds like a cricket (cicada) followed by Formula 1 sounds. I think the Formula 1 sounds work really well throughout your stuff. Are you a fan of motor racing?

Synth.nl: Yes I love motor racing. Formula 1 in particular. I really love this little high tech world. Once a year I just have to go to a race and hear the singing of these high revving engines and also smell the mixture of oil, gasoline and burning rubber. Also the atmosphere on race events is always very relaxed. I will go to the 24 hours of Le Mans this year as well. Second best to Formula 1. The car you hear in Scuderia is a Ferrari Formula 1 car by the way. My favourite brand..

Ferrari Scuderia Formula 1 car.

Jude: Have you ever been on a track day? Where you go to a racing track and drive round the track in your own car? I did a few laps at Donnington as a passenger in a TVR Tuscan and we came off the track at over 100 mph. That was fun. Do you like fast cars? What car do you drive?

Yeah, that TVR Tuscan. A total sex beast.

Synth.nl: I drove on the Fiorano circuit recently at the Ferrari factory. This is their official test track. We drove brand new F430 cars there with an official testdriver. It was like a dream come through for me. It was actually the only time I drove on a circuit. In the beginning I was quite nervous, but after a while I really enjoyed it. My dream is to buy a Ferrari one day. But for now I drive a very nice cousin. It is a Maserati.

Above: Synth.nl's dream car. The Ferrari F430.

Jude: I’ve just written an article about Peter Greenaway, who also lives in the Netherlands, like you. Michael Nyman has written the scores for many of his films. What do think of Michael Nyman’s music?

Synth.nl: I wasn’t familiar with his music before I read the interview. I listened to some of his work after reading the interview. It is very nice I think. Much more classical than what I do. But I like classical music a lot too. I can only have much respect for someone that has achieved all this already. I’m just a beginning amateur compared to this man.

Jude: I saw Orbital live in Sheffield some time in the early nineties and it was one of the best gigs I’ve ever been to. Have you ever seen them live? What did you think when you first heard their music? Have they influenced your work?

Synth.nl: No I haven’t seen them live unfortunately. I would like to though. I like their work a lot. And yes they influenced me for sure.

Jude: Are you classically trained? If so, up to what grade? And if so, was the piano your first instrument?

Synth.nl: I took one year organ lessons when I was ten years old, but I hated the music they made me play and also the fact that I had to learn to read notes. So I quit :) I still can’t read notes actually. I do everything on my hearing and can read the midi editor in Sonar very well. After this organ lessons a long time nothing happened. I studied electronics and from there my interest in synths came along. More from the technical side than the musical side. So actually I started out as a collector of these beautifully black and white buttoned machines with blinking light on them about 11 years ago. I never did anything usefull with them though but tweaking filters and knobs. About 1 year ago I suffered a burnout and had to stay home from work to recover from that and got bored quite quickly. That is when I started making music to relax and keep myself busy. I took a very steep learning curve in that year :) I actually had no idea where to start.

Jude: Do you have sounds already in your mind before you compose a new piece? Like, with Asian cooking and website building, you prepare all the ingredients and then right at the last minute, assemble them into something interesting. How would you describe composing music on a synth? What kind of process do you use?

Synth.nl: Usually I’m starting with a certain sound I like. I’m always fiddling around with synth sounds or samples I like to record in the field with my Edirol R09. I love that machine. I carry it around everywhere. At a certain moment a melody evolves around these sounds and I start to work on a rough track. Usually I work on a lot of tracks at the same time. I like switching between them and tweaking them bit by bit until they are finished. I also have some friends that listen to my rough versions and comment them. I learn a lot from my friends this way. In the beginning it was strange for me to hear that people all listen to different things in a track.

Jude: Are you more into smoother rhythmic electronic music rather than industrial dance music?

Synth.nl: I like smooth stuff and dance stuff as well. Not too hardcore though. It has to be melodious in the first place and my preference is synths only. So no acoustical instruments are harmed in the production of my music ;)

Jude: Was Tubular Bells an influence on you? Tubular Bells was one of the albums which was very important to me during the 70s.

Synth.nl: Yes I liked that album a lot. I was one of the first instrumental things I heard. I started my to listen to Vangelis and Jarre after that. And that is the music I ended up loving the most.

Jude: Do you like Hagelslag on bread? I think Hagelslag is one of the best things about Holland.

Synth.nl: Hahaha. Yes I like it, but I’m more a peanut butter kind of guy :)

Jude: More about the 70s…you list Tangerine Dream as one of your influences. I went to see Tangerine Dream at the Sheffield City Hall around 1974, and fell asleep. But it was a great experience. Music as drugs. I think the idea of music as a soundscape is a very pure form of music as it aids thought processes in a meditative kind of way. What do you think about this idea?

Synth.nl: I totally agree on that. Relaxing is very important in my music as well. I often use music to fall a sleep myself. To get back on Tangerine Dream: Maybe that could have been the nicest thing to happen to them too. The whole City Hall asleep :) I would feel very pleased if I know someone used my music to fall a sleep with :)

Jude: Do you have to have a day job to support making music or are you fortunate enough to be able to work at your music full time?

Above: Schematic view of main studio components.

Synth.nl: 11 years ago I quit my job and started an Internet company together with a partner. I worked from 8 AM till 2 AM every day for the first 10 years. And then the burnout came. I didn’t have time to listen to music in that period. So I have a lot of catching up to do. I’m just starting out with my music and I hope to release my first CD this year. So this far I only spend a lot of money on this hobby :)

Jude: I notice you’ve got a Roland Jupiter 6, which is of course a well sexy and very famous synth. What do you reckon to Roland Junos?

Synth.nl: Well let me start out that I have always been a Roland fan. The Jupiter is very nice indeed. I also have Europa installed in there, wich makes it a bit more modern. And about the Juno’s I haven’t got one yet, but I have a Juno 160 on my wishlist actually. So probably will get one some day. Recently I bought a JX8P also very nice :)

Jude: The Human League were, of course, a really great band in their early days. What do you think of their early music?

Synth.nl: Very nice music. I even have an album of them. Though I do prefer instrumental music :)

Jude: I love all the photos of your equipment on your website, including photos of the leads coming out the back of your gear. It’s almost organic, that. Tell me something about all your equipment, your favourite pieces for example and why you like them.

Synth.nl: Well to start out I’m a real gear junkie. I love sitting in my studio with the lights off and look at all the leds blinking. You can see that in my video’s I guess. When I buy a synth it is always a combination of sound and looks. I also like to do everything myself. All cables are hand soldered exactly to length. And I know exactly where every cables is. The only problem of my studio now is that it is full. I can hardly fit in there myself anymore. At the moment I actually thinking about building the entire thing from scratch in a bigger room. A lot of work, but worthwhile I think. About my favourite gear. A lot of people prefer old vintage synths my my favourites are actually very modern ones. My top 3: 1) V-synth (soon to be replaced by already ordered V-synth GT). 2) Access Virus TI and 3) The Korg Karma because it is fun to jam on.

Jude: I’ve not listened to a lot of Vangelis, although the soundtrack to Bladerunner is one of my favourite film soundtracks. Which are your favourite Vangelis albums and why?

Synth.nl: Oh that is difficult. He did so may things a most of them are brilliant. I love Soil Festivities that is my ultimate relaxing CD. And I like Oceanic and Voices as well. My favourite track is an oldie. Spiral :P

Jude: What unknown/little known and undiscovered musicians do you particularly rate? Maybe ones you’ve met on MySpace or ones you’ve come across in other ways.

Synth.nl: At the moment I’m discovering a lot of new artists. I meet a lot of people on myspace now. Lovely new world to discover. For me they are new but probably not for insiders: Again a top 3) Ron Boots, Gert Emmens, Nattefrost.

Jude: And of course, Kraftwerk. Are they Gods, or what? I would say so. Can you remember when you first heard them? What effect did their music have on you?

Synth.nl: OK. The first time I heard them I just thought they were weird :) I learned to really appreciate their music later. I recently bought their DVD and I really love it. I have watched it more than 20 times already and I’m not done yet. Now I’m looking up all their old albums as well.

Jude: Would you like to compose film scores eventually?

Synth.nl: Yes. That would be my ultimate goal. I would also love to do documentaries for the BBC, Discovery or National Geographic or so.

I hope you do. I think your music is brilliant, and I hope you go on to be a big success, which you deserve. Thank you for inviting me to be a MySpace friend.

Synth.nl: Thank you very much for accepting me as a friend and this nice interview. I really enjoyed it.

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Synth.nl's MySpace

Synth.nl's site

A really well laid out and easy to navigate site. Here's an extract from the projects page:

AeroDynamics Album (2007)
I'm working currently on my first album. I selected 'Aerodynamics' as the main theme for this album. It will probably become the name of the album as well. During my unvoluntary millitary duty I served in the Dutch airforce, where I was a mechanic on F-16 fighter planes. I got quite some education before I was able to perform this task. One of the classes I enjoyed a lot was aerodynamics and since then I have allways been fascinated with the aerodynamic aspect of race cars, jet planes and space vehicles. So all tracks are related to this subject.

Atmosphere Album (2007)
I haven't finished my first album yet, but I am already working on the second one as well. I even know the theme for the next one. That third one will be all about Space. But before you get from the ground into space, you have to leave the atmosphere. So we will go through the different layers of air on this album. During this journey we will encounter a lot of cloud formations and other phenomena in earths atmosphere.

Classical Project (2007)
I started working on a new project as well called 'Classical'. It will be a project for 2007. The objective is to make a CD with Synth.nl versions of famous classical tracks from the old composers like Vivaldi, van Beethoven, Bach and Pachelbel.

Many thanks to Synth.nl for the interview and for the ease of communication too :)

Above: Me on my way to the 24 hour bike race at Le Mans on the back of a Yamaha XJ900. 1984.

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© Jude Calvert-Toulmin

INTERVIEW WITH BLACK CAT WHITE CAT'S ANGELA BASSON

I first saw Black Cat White Cat perform at The Shakespeare as part of Sheffield Tramlines 2013. I loved vocalist Angela Basson's raw animal magnetism and visceral passion, backed by a band so tight and accomplished and I determined to see the band’s live performances whenever possible thereafter.

Fast forward a couple of years and I’m invited round to Black Cat White Cat HQ where on a dreamy terrace swing seat under a bead-fringed garden umbrella on a warm early summer’s afternoon, aforementioned vocalist Angela Basson talks about Janis Joplin, Strummer’s The Mescaleros, Katie Perry, women in music and the puff of green smoke in the Wizard of Oz...

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On the history of Black Cat White Cat...

Angela Basson: Black Cat White Cat have been going about five and a half years. We’ve all got jobs and lives so we’ve just dipped in and out and it’s taken us ages to get to this point and record. We all write together, that’s important as we all own our own stuff.

I met our drummer Simon Stafford through going down to a gig night at Sheffield’s Club 60 - an underground studio a bit like Liverpool’s Tavern. I’d just played with my electro outfit from the town I was living in at the time, Goole. When I was sixteen I used to sing jazz, some guys were jamming and I was just sat there, feeling a bit shy, and I thought, “What am I doing? Why am I sat here in my own prison? Why don’t I just get up and sing some blues?”

So I got up and sang and then a stranger came over and talked to me. Turned out to be Simon Stafford and the first few things he said were just really supportive, I can’t remember his exact words, but it was something like “I think it’s a real shame that there aren’t more female musicians, that was great, it’s really nice to meet you.” And never, in all the time I’d been doing music, had anyone said anything so supportive because most blokes are so apologetic of themselves, aren’t they? They feel a bit awkward around woman in music. It’s too much of a rarity I think.

Simon’s a multi-instrumentalist who’s worked with many musicians in the past including Jarvis Cocker (who does a good radio show and likes his corduroy suits.) Simon was in the Longpigs too, and Joe Strummer and The Mescaleros – I know that when he played for two weeks in Brooklyn New York, that was the best time in his life, as a musician.

He loved Joe; he says Joe was nice to everybody and spent hours after the gig talking to fans. I liked the sound of Strummer before I met Simon, it’s clear he walked the walk. 

I bet his children missed their dad, I know from having my own child that juggling parenthood and music isn’t always easy. I plan to buy a really good ‘home on wheels’ so my daughter can come along on tour sometimes, if things go to plan. I’m qualified to teach so hopefully this will all be manageable during festival season.  

When I saw Chris Saunders play guitar in Shakespeares I didn’t know him, so I threw peanuts at him until I got his attention. I love the way that Chris plays – he’s captured something in between the cinematic and pure rock. Chris is a portrait photographer; he’s taken photos of hundreds of subjects including David Lynch who’s had a big influence on Chris artistically - Lynch is a fan of Chris’s work too, it’s all good company.

 “Whatever a woman does in the industry she will be judged – the platform comes with teeth and claws.”

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On women in rock and pop...

AB: Women in rock tend to represent themselves in one of three ways: sexual, vulnerable or political. Whatever a woman does in the industry she will be judged – the platform comes with teeth and claws.

When I think of really famous women, Katie Perry, for example, strikes me as someone whose goal was to be powerful in pop and she decided to go in the direction of what the industry funds –attractiveness – and she’s tried to set herself apart by being not only sexual but kitsch and it’s obviously worked because she’s had a big team of PR, costume etc to enable it all. She looks good, she looks fun and it’s all very cheesy, a bit like a Carry On Film. My daughter loves her, she writes from the heart like most people. I don’t mind a few of her tracks. 'Birthday' sounds like classic Prince to me.

It’s interesting that she married Russell Brand, they seem like completely different creatures – she seems to support the development of self image and the feelings of the individual, which is good, Russell has very universal global concerns, he gets stick for it as much as support. Same as Sting who got so much stick for buying rainforests - I’ve never understood why some people get so angry when others, on getting a bit of money behind them, try to do the right thing. It's better than keeping your money hidden away. Best thing a person can do if it make people’s lives better, if they have that opportunity. I think the world might be changing in this way. I hope so. 

Jude Calvert-Toulmin:  I guess some people are critical of others' philanthropy because it makes them question their own lack of generosity.

AB: I don’t know, perhaps people think it’s because it would interrupt their career and make them become something else? Because what’s really huge in terms of entertainment on that level is not really thinking about the concerns of the world, and we bury ourselves from these issues, so to engage with serious complicated issues would be detrimental... there is a definite division between responsibility and entertainment. Greed rules everywhere.

JCT:  It’s contravening the escapist...

AB: Exactly. Katie Perry’s mostly about escapism. And I suppose that’s an art form in itself...

JCT:  Doesn’t really marry with what Russell Brand’s about, does it?

“And I suppose that’s how I survive, just go the opposite direction to where people try to position me.”

People have gone off Madonna, she was queen in the 80’s, she was subject to growing older as a pop artist and being cash rich and successful enough to continue, plus the perception of her seeming to have a large ego made her hard to swallow. I would not want to be that popular - why would anybody need so much? If things take off I’m hoping my make-up and costume enable me to unnoticed on the street. 

The main reason I formed a band is because I want to sing and perform, I simply enjoy it but I don’t want to bore people who have taken time out to come and see us so I give it my all.  

Power can be misused. Thatcher’s best quality was that she was a woman in power, she betrayed us by destroying communities and under-minding equality.

The public adore Adele but the main point of discussion beyond her singing ability is her dress size, so she comes under sexual and vulnerable I’d say - there are schools of thought debating whether her dress size affects how entertaining she is. It’s a patronising, “Hey she’s on the large size but wow she can sing.” Why wouldn’t she be able to sing? What does size have to do with it?

AB: For someone of my age you have to be on the ball and do it with passion and heart. I have to be as on top of the game as I can be so it has to be a show and it has to be energetic. I feel like there isn’t space for average female singers so I cannot be one. I sing with character. I had a few opera singing lessons years ago but I'm self-directed. When I perform my aim is to be full on, give it a full percentage and I don’t see how I could do it any other way, I don’t think there’s another avenue. At sixteen I couldn’t sing how I sing now. I was so shy back then, plus I think it’s rarer to have a woman rather than a bloke fronting a rock band so I think it’s a responsibility to do it as well as I can.

My advice to single young girls starting out in the industry if they're in a band with a few blokes is to be aware that the blokes will be quite flirtatious and often want something more out of you. It's human nature but it can be irritating. When you were in a band was it all male musicians?

JCT:  No, in Venus Tree we had three women and one bloke and I was pregnant as well with my third child when we did most of our gigs so the dynamic was completely different – actually for the last few gigs my stomach was really protruding making my guitar sit at an angle...

AB: I got sacked from a band for wearing too tight jeans. This guy...I was singing a bit of blues and he said “It’s doing funny things to t’lads in t’band. I don’t know what you’re trying to do there.” And I was quite a bit older then so I was thinking “What?” so I was sacked for wearing tight jeans .

JCT:  Unbelievable...everyday sexism...

AB: Then after I’d left I was talking to one of the lads in the band in the pub and I said, “So what really went on?  Why was I asked to leave?” and he said, really bitchily “Coz. You really aren’t good enough” and I said “Fuck you, one day, I’m gonna fucking write some stuff that’s gonna be fucking brilliant. Don’t you fucking tell me I’m not good enough.”

And I suppose that’s how I survive, just go the opposite direction to where people try to position me. What he could have said was “Angela, it’s a setback, keep going with it, bands move on all the time.” It bugged me. Even if he thought it, it was a mean response to actually voice. 

***

On making the debut album 9 Wild Lovers...

AB: We’re going to put out a couple of singles including the single ‘Fat Bitch’, and in early autumn put our first album 9 Wild Lovers online & CD hopefully on vinyl which you’ll be able to buy from Bandcamp here.

JCT:  What was it like working with producer Ross Orton who mixed 9 Wild Lovers?

AB: It was brilliant. It’s no secret that Ross is world class. He’s super professional and a great character, it was loads of fun. He got his head down, he worked hard and I really admire him. He’s built his own studio with bare hands, no tools (laughs.) It was a great experience, if he doesn’t really like the music he won’t work with it and I respect that. Ross is really into rock so I knew we’d get great results.

I love the Arctic Monkeys track ‘Do I Wanna Know?’ which Ross produced – he co-produced the whole album in L.A., he’s got a platinum for that hung up, he deserves it, really talented bloke.

Dave Sanderson, who recorded the album, was really understanding of the fact we were skint and had to spread the cost over time. We could only do a day here and a day there when we could afford it. So it’s taken two years to record the album.

We recorded the album at 2 Fly, where the Arctic Monkeys recorded their demos (now quite a historic thing musically). There’s a much bigger vibe around music and possibility and energy amongst Sheffield bands because of the Arctic Monkeys, they went so massive that people felt it could happen to them. I think the music industry, the infrastructure and the vibe for making something happen has grown on the back of their productivity.

Dave’s produced some fantastic music, Hey Sholay, 69 Days of Static, The Payroll Union and currently Faerground Accidents who are doing OK, so he’s working on some really good material. In terms of our producers we’re really lucky. Both Ross and Dave apart from being great producers are really good company as well.

“I’m gonna make one of my dreams come true, make some muppets and be in my own muppet show.”

***

On gigging...

So far we’ve never tried to promote the band. We made a single, Fridge a couple of years ago and Paul Blakeman really wanted to put it out on the Club 60 label on vinyl and Helene Michaelides really wanted to do the video for the single, which you can see on YouTube. I’m a big Jim Henson fan so I just thought “I’m gonna make one of my dreams come true, make some muppets and be in my own muppet show.”  I wanted it to have a message too so it had a ‘Give Blood’ theme and everyone did it for free. 

There are two more videos in the pipeline. Bands need videos nowadays, everything is centred on the internet.

We’ve done about 30 gigs around Sheffield over the past few years but never asked for a gig. We just play gigs if someone asks and we can play them. We played Newcastle and everyone thought we were great, amazing and one guy said “If you’re not on Jools Holland by next year I’m gonna kill myself.” Simon says he is probably dead now, ha!

That’s the thing I’m looking forward to, I’m looking forward to playing more out of town, and I think it’ll be vibey.

JCT:  What about London?

AB: We've not played London yet but we're planning a tour in the future...

“If you’re not on Jools Holland by next year I’m gonna kill myself.”

***

On musical influences...

AB: ScottWalker melted my soul. Shirley Bassey, she’s an against the odds singer. Kate Bush, she’s intriguing, she does it in her own individual style. Jim Jones, I’d love to support him, Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds, TheDetroit Cobras, Gold Blade, Joan Jett, Billy Holiday because again she’s an against the odds singer where despite racism in America, they just had to have her, her voice was so beautiful. I like lots of music, the list is endless.

Billy Holiday is the woman who enticed me to sing through just listening and thinking “Wow, that’s amazing, I wish I could do something like that.” I was stuck in a small town, there was nothing else to do so I might as well sing along to Billy Holiday records.

And Suzi Quatro in the 70's, I was a really young girl when she came on the scene, I just loved her vibe but Siouxie Sioux – although I really like her now – was still a fledgling, underground punky act, something you wouldn’t have watched on Swap Shop. So whilst Siouxie Sioux was writing her first few albums I would have been listening to Prince, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, Wham and Madonna cause that was blaring out the telly.

I’m originally from the vinyl record era – it’s the difference between an old book and Kindle – vinyl records hold memories better than downloads somehow.

“Billy Holiday is the woman who enticed me to sing.”

Prince was a bit of a sexual awakening. When he wrote Purple Rain I was probably developing so watching the movie was “Oooo...what’s this funny feeling? Prince is nice!”

I got into Janis Joplin when my friend Mike bought me an album and said “You need some Janis in your life.” Quite often people will say “You’re like Janis Joplin”. I must look a bit like her or it’s just a few things that make people think that. What are the elements about her?

JCT:  You’ve got a wild, independent freedom in your stage presence that is reminiscent of Janis. With artists like Siouxie Sioux and Suzie Quatro it’s more contrived and staged, they’ve got a really boxed-in image, whereas yours is so organic and natural. The name of the band is Black Cat White Cat, obviously, but you’ve got a feline presence onstage.

AB: When I watch videos I just think I look terrible but that’s not what other people say.

JCT:  You look absolutely amazing on stage. Every woman thinks they look terrible, that’s just part of being a woman. You’ve got an incredible stage presence. It’s cat-like, the way you move, it’s got a freedom and an uncontrivedness about it that’s very reminiscent of Janis.

AB: Thank you very kind words. Yeah Janis...I think people are really cruel about the way that she looked. Sometimes I see photographs of Janis and she looks really nice. Obviously she’s singing and when you’re singing your face is contorted.

So even when you make an effort with your togs, move around, sound brilliant, your face gets contorted, someone takes a snap and then all hell breaks loose.  We’re not allowed to be natural. We’re not allowed to contort our faces but they still wanna hear the sound so because she sang so well – and it’s a really physical thing, singing – she had to be that way, but what they wanna see is a really evenly shaped face with a mouth that opens up not so much and that’s OK, and that’s why nowadays people make all those videos but Janis was from the pre-music video era, she sang live and you get loads of live footage. End of.  

Now it’s all manipulated, you’re a product of the time. And because she never got to live her life and settle down with one guy she went down in history as a woman who was lost and promiscuous and everybody was experimenting back then but she got pulled up for it.

“...even when you make an effort with your togs, move around, sound brilliant, your face gets contorted, someone takes a snap and then all hell breaks loose.  We’re not allowed to be natural.”

***

On perseverance...

AB: There’s always been things trying to hold us back from being a band but we just carry on.

Driving to the practice room once the car got stuck and we spent three hours jumping on top of the car trying to move it an inch...at one point we thought we’d lost all our recordings (we found them on a hard drive in the end)...I was supposed to go down and sing some vocals at the tail end of things and I walked into a lamp post and had to cancel, it’s been like that all the time but it’s all just typical...we just kept going despite all these things. In 2015 Simon Stafford was diagnosed with a brain tumour, which put the album on hold for another year. After successful surgery Simon is doing really well, he's escaped death with amazing results, thanks to the NHS. 

JCT:  Yeah, some of these are huge hurdles you’ve had to overcome, especially Simon's brain cancer...

AB: Yeah. You think you’re in control and you’re not. But we're going to keep going, the reaction when we play live is always so positive. I’ve been in other bands and I’ve never had reactions like when Black Cat White Cat play - you know when people are faking it or not – at the end of the gig we often get ten or fifteen people coming over and saying “That was amazing”, “That was fucking brilliant” and “That was awesome – have you got something I can buy?”  

We didn’t know we were good or not until we played our first gig at the first ever Tramlines up near the Uni, it was a really packed gig. Someone told me that this bloke had gone to the bar to buy a pint and said “Fuck ‘avin’ a pint, this band’s too good I’m just gonna watch the band I don’t care about me pint.” That kind of reaction is inspiring - you're only as good as the reaction.

That’s when I knew. It’s basically up to the audience. It’s always up to the audience. Playing to the wrong audience feels like feeling-up somebody who you really don’t fancy. The trick is to play the right places on the right night to the right people.

JCT:  The first Tramlines when it was pissing down and Reverend and the Makers played on Devonshire Green? I was dancing in the audience with my brolly to that gig.

AB: Yeah that one. I’ve been told that the Reverends said we’re one of the best bands in Sheffield. 

Russell Senior from Pulp wrote a really lovely piece about us. He said he was really worried about going to see us in case it was rubbish and then it’s really embarrassing but then the opposite happened and he loved us. He thinks I sing a bit like Grace Slick.

I know Richard Hawley thinks our stuff’s good. Well he’s in our first video, isn’t he? 

“Fuck ‘avin’ a pint, this band’s too good I’m just gonna watch the band I don’t care about me pint.”

***

On ‘Fat Bitch’...

AB: We’re releasing ‘Fat Bitch’ as a single at some point. I’m saying it to myself, ‘Fat Bitch’ - it’s about me. I own it. If somebody uses this term towards somebody else they are being abusive, don’t tolerate it, they have the problem. I’m saying I have my own problem, and part of that problem is the way people struggle with humanity wanting to be accepted and loved and we all mess up at one point. It’s a plea to find a soul mate, the ultimate preoccupation is to be loved and love back.

Gentle language is very important and the actual content of the song is completely diametrically opposed to its title – I sing of acceptance, classic romance but I’ve set it within the context of postmodern anxiety, with a flash back to Led Zep.

I wrote ‘Fat Bitch’ on an acoustic guitar. I was single and I’d been seeing this lad who was messing me around and it just came from that, feeling fed up with looking for love and feeling I wasn’t getting anywhere, so it’s a song about wanting to meet someone who was worth their weight - it was never fully constructed as a song, it was a scrappy half-written idea but it was one of the songs that helped me recruit musicians. Simon, Chris and Ross played a big part in completing it as a full-blown track.

“It’s basically up to the audience. It’s always up to the audience.”

‘Fat Bitch’ refers to how to we, men as well as women, can pull ourselves down and look for reasons as to why things aren’t working out and then look to themselves...you want to just meet someone who’s genuine and accepts you for who you are and loves you inside and out and the feeling that sometimes we’re really meticulous and ridiculous about this, there can be nothing wrong with somebody and they can have all sorts of hang-ups about their shape and who they are and it really is about just meeting that right person, there’s probably nothing wrong so with you that most people go through one way or another. But we do these things to ourselves to make sense of the world.

JCT:  Do you think women do this more than men?

AB: No I think men do it as well but there’s definitely more pressure on women to look more polished than there is on men, and it’s really time consuming to achieve that polished look so there’s more leisure time spent on that so maybe they feel when they are out and about if they’re not presented in a certain way they’ll be seen as not making an effort whereas for a man it doesn’t even cross their mind, they’ll just fling on a t-shirt...

JCT:  Well have you noticed how women in the public eye from TV presenters to MPs, the first things that are commented upon are their weight and clothes? Remember the presenter David Frost? In his late seventies, old and doddery, fronting national mainstream TV shows. You wouldn’t get an woman in her late seventies looking like that presenting daytime television, it wouldn’t happen.

AB: I remember when Blondie came back on the scene with Maria and Debbie Harry got pulled up and she was fabulous! People were really hung up about whether she was young enough to keep doing it but good on her, because I wonder whether TheRolling Stones would have headlined if she’d not done that before them, whether they’d have felt self-conscious. I really felt for her.

JCT:  Well, I love Keith Richards but who’s ever criticised him in the press for his looks? Nobody. Ever.

AB: Yeah. It’s just cool. End of. Debbie Harry talks about that a lot, how her image has been a huge part of her career and it has, she was a stunning young girl, but for a while the public couldn’t accept her as an older woman yet if you saw her without knowing she was famous you’d just think she was a stunning older woman. It’s an impossibility to stay the same age.

JCT:  The problem is that because polished air-brushed photographs of women in the public eye are foisted on us it’s what we as the general public now expect. How do you feel about this as a female performer?

AB:  I’m normal and I will adhere to some of it. I’m as vulnerable as any other person, I’m not separate from it, I’m gonna go out in togs, and although I’m not going to be separate from it, I’m really aware of it. My make up and costume mean when I am on stage I’m working, and when I’m off … I’m off, just me ‘Angela’ hippy and mum.

JCT:  Good point...why do you normally wear black when performing by the way?

AB: Coz I’m 60% Goth.

“I don’t think images of nearly naked woman in six inch heels is a balanced world view and I don’t think women are getting a fair representation.”

***

On women in the industry...

AB: Many people feel that women in the music industry are over-sexualised, dancing provocatively and performing almost naked. The industry is funding this and the pressure on young girls to do the same is very real – I don’t mind it massively, but I don’t subject my daughter to these over-sexualised images, they’re not educational or particularly entertaining, In fact I think it desensitises sensuality, they are culturally irrelevant but somehow addictive to people, in fact I’m not sure how a woman doesn’t have sexuality. I don’t think images of nearly naked woman in six inch heels is a balanced worldview and I don’t think women are getting a fair representation.   

When I was a girl I remember women saying that feminism had made things worse, well it didn’t, what it did and still does is challenge the status quo and that frightens people. Feminism became very academic and when people struggle to understand something, it can become repellent. Of course there are different points of view but I think unfortunately many people feel feminism stands for ‘female supremacy’ and of course it doesn’t.

A man can be a feminist in my book; I think it’s a word that describes the desire for equality. We cannot ban words, they are out there. Like ‘Fat Bitch’ we have to change the negative into the positive, it’s about vernacular. We can’t just eliminate words from history, it wouldn’t work. Feminism has been used more for good causes than bad.

I’m for being supportive of people in whatever they want to do as long as it’s isn’t hurting anybody else. I think it’s that simple.

“I’m the witch you never see under the shed when Dorothy first lands in Oz.”

***

On The Wizard of Oz...

AB: Dorothy clicks her heels to escape and return home so I have this thing about wanting to escape the place I grew up in – Goole – I always had this instinctive feeling that there was more to life and that people could be a lot kinder than they really are, because of course there’s the witch who’s being really mean to Toto in her black and white world and the witch is the landowner, ‘the Conservative or Top Down Authority’ if you like and then Dorothy goes into the magical world where’s the crossroads of good and evil and you have good witches and bad witches  and on your journey you make friends with these unusual characters.

I cite some of Wizard of Oz in my lyrics, and there’s a tale of a green ghost a childhood friend told me about when we were twagging (skipping school) one day on the Monkey Bridge (I mention the Monkey Bridge in one of my songs.) There’s these great water towers called The Salt and Pepper Pots, a feat of engineering -  there’s lots of engineering feats in Goole, it’s an important port but a small town - and there’s some lovely footage of the water towers, you can find it on YouTube where the men are rigging to build it and they’re sliding up and down, there’s no hard hats, nothing, and when they opened it in 1915 they had amazing green fireworks during the opening ceremony and there was an explosion in which someone died.

In the Wizard of Oz the witches appear in a green puff of smoke and my friend had this thing about ghosts – I never did, never believed in this tale and then I discovered that there was some truth in it, someone did die in a green puff of smoke...

Growing up in eighties Thatcher’s Britain was quite a brutal period for a child - not that other periods before it weren’t difficult – we still had corporate stuff going on so I empathise with Dorothy’s journey on a road of discovery to get back to whatever true love is or to find something meaningful and find a righteous path or one of humanity and she mistakenly burns the witch, she doesn’t do it on purpose, she doesn’t realise that pouring water on the witch is going to kill her off, she feels quite guilty about it. 

I fancied making some ruby slippers so I performed with powder blue socks and ruby slippers so I wasn’t just completely dressed in black. Now I’m true to the L. Frank Baum books and I wear silver slippers.

***

After an enchanting and thought-provoking afternoon talking to Angela I’m left with the striking impression of how challenging it is to be a female artist loyal to your principles in what is still, essentially a patriarchal world, especially the world of music. How many festival line-ups comprise all male bands for example?

Considering Angela’s fascination with The Wizard of Oz, it’s interesting to note that its aforementioned author, L.Frank Baum, was very close to his mother-in-law, the noted suffragist Matilda Joslyn Gage, and edited a newspaper focused around women’s rights, as well as being the secretary of his local women’s suffrage club...

The magic, and messages of his Oz books live on...